Talk:Developing Arts
Any ideas how you get beyond Swift/Peerless upgrades (eg Boxing the Compass or Ballestra)? :I'm not sure what you mean, from what i read: Boxing the Compass = Peerless Four Winds, Ballestra = Peerless Fleche. There's nothing beyond that. Then again, i didn't test these myself so when i do i'll add that to the page if it's not that simple. Drake178 07:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC) :That's exactly what they are, swift or peerless by another name. Boxing the Compass and Rose of the Winds are learnt the exact same way that Swift and Peerless are learnt. Same goes for Double Bore (Swift Twin Gimlet), and any others. I've learnt those the same way I learnt Swift or Peerless with any character. IE. Torgal with Halphas Dominus for Quad Wield arts will learn, Swift Quad Slice V, Rose of the Winds V, Julienne V, Swift Quadrille V. Mikeyakame 07:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC) Mystic Arts I did some very basic testing of the mystic art development, but i think starting the test midgame with 4 art trees already somewhat developed and only two new ones will not be as accurate as i'd like it to be, so i'll wait for a new game for a real test. Here's what this first test yielded: * Both Poison Gas and Orphic Ward give a mystic chance after 4 uses (Tier I both). This probably extrapolates to all Rank C Tier I Mystic Arts. These 4 uses are enough to upgrade them to Tier II in both cases. * If not upgraded with this mystic chance they give another after 4 more uses. * If still not upgraded then, they give yet another after 4 more, i assume this continues until they are eventually upgraded. * Going a tier higher, Poison Gas II gives the chance after 9 uses. * There is only one mystic chance per battle, even if multiple arts would trigger one. * Any art with enough uses to learn/upgrade will show up in the mystic chance, not just the one triggering it. * Any art available for learning/upgrading in a mystic chance will have their learning counters reset to 0. This is a separate counter, not the one keeping track of the total uses of the art. Example: you don't learn Poison Gas II on the mystic chance you get after 4 uses. You use it 3 more times, get another mystic chance with another spell and still don't learn PG II (although it will show up as learnable). You now need to use it 4 times again to get a mystic chance, rather than 1 more time. * Counters for arts that do not appear for learning/upgrading are not reset. Example: you use PG 3 times, then get a mystic chance with something else (PG II does not appear), which you learn. After one more use of PG you will get a mystic chance. Preliminary theory goes something like this: * Each tier of each Rank has a Mystic Chance Number assosicated with it (4 for Rank C Tier I, 9 for Rank C Tier II). * Each art keeps track of it's own mystic chance counter, this is reset to 0 whenever the art shows up in a mystic chance, regardless of whether it's learned or not. Whenever this counter reaches the Mystic Chance Number, a mystic chance occurs. * Every art with sufficient usage to upgrade to the next tier, and every art in a tree with sufficient uses to learn the next Rank will show up in a mystic chance. * If there are no arts that match these criteria (ie learning mystic arts by using Tier V arts only), a random art will be chosen. This might actually be based on number of uses of any other art (meaning the one with the highest counter will show up first), but if there are no uses on any of them (or all of them are tier V) there must be a random element. Or otherwise it's a set order that the code goes through. Obviously if there's nothing to learn there will be no mystic chance (i doubt you'd get new art trees this way). * NPCs will favor higher Rank over higher Tier when faced with a choice between the two. There are still plenty of holes to cover here, remember this was only a very basic test. It might work completely differently. Drake178 18:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC) Uses of Combat Arts Hey mate. I updated Tier II -> III Rank S Combat Art usage count. Usage is 50 times (200XP Rank S Counter, 4XP / use) to change II -> III. Mikeyakame 08:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC) :That was just a quick run-through test result, not surprised it wasn't all that accurate (didn't double-check it). Now that i know a bit more about the xp mechanics i have to say that while i double-checked all the other numbers (and triple and quadruple-checked some of them), they may still be slightly off. On a side note, you might as well just edit your observation into the article rather than put a note below :P When we've thoroughly tested the xp mechanics i'll likely rework this article. It might also be a good idea to put the xp numbers straight into the table too, that's how it will end anyway. Drake178 09:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC) Combat Arts XP Mechanics I'm moving this here because it's getting ugly now. Once we know everything i'll format it and put it back into the article. For you it doesn't matter where you edit it, but for the reader it just confuses everything. Drake178 09:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC) NB - Required/Given XP: *1 x Select Combat Art = 4XP to Specific Combat Art Counter & 2XP to Weapon Specific Counter *1 x Select/Perform Combat Art = 4XP to Specific Combat Art Count & 4XP to Weapon Specific Counter ie. Select Dragon's Flight & Perform Attack with Mace Weapon * Dragon's Flight XP += 4XP * Mace XP += 4XP ie. Select Dragon's Flight & Don't Perform Attack with Mace Weapon * Dragon's Flight XP += 4XP * Mace XP += 2XP Also if you're only keeping track of the end xp (ie using my table without any modification) you can't tell the whole story. Here is how what you wrote down should look like (although i'd think it's +2 to everything for the first step and another +2 for the second, you tested it so it must be this way, i'm fairly sure though that it's +2/+2 to the wield style as well): * Selecting the Combat Art and starting the turn: +4xp to the combat art, +2xp to the weapon type, +2xp to the wield style at the start of the turn * Actually Performing the Combat Art: +2xp to the weapon type, +2xp to the weild style used (can be different from the previous) However at the end of the battle you'll only see the total, since you're looking at ooc (out-of-combat) xp only and the difference can only be seen in the battle xp (in my tables it's +4 to the final offsets of the xp pointers). Drake178 09:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC) :Yep sorry wasn't paying attention to Wield Style, but you are correct with the 2/2 split for wield style as well. Forgot to add that! Mikeyakame 09:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC) :On the other hand I'm slowly getting towards Ordainer I think! :*Sword = 1096XP, Katana = 280XP, Axe = 82XP, Mace = 156XP :*Spear = 1784XP, Staff = 10XP :Still probably a decent way away but this is got to be the most ridiculous feat for a Commander to change class to, damn Wards Focus. I've had to block all my mystic arts and item arts just to get Combat Arts to show up once every couple of turns! Mikeyakame 09:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC) What do you mean by Wards Focus? I don't think there is such a thing. Then again, i never really had multi-art mystic focus characters (I see you added that to the Commander page as well). The ones i did have never distinguished between mystic art and mystic art, it was random just like everything else. The only reason i saw more of one school was because i had more arts learned in it. And obviously the reason why i saw more mystic arts commands was the mystic focus. Also your highest ranking art appears more than anything else, i assume that's even worse for wards because it has several commands that use mainly wards if you don't have potions (Offensive/Defensive support). All in all, i doubt there is a school specific mystic focus. I also doubt Commander has any focus at all, but i'll get back to that later. If you want to find out, enable and learn potions to the max (and get 100 of each component), if half of your offensive/defensive support commands get replaced by potions then Commander has no focus whatsoever. Drake178 10:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC) :Hmm with Commander I get Protection/Orphic Ward/Band of Champions/Decoy/Cheer on almost every union every turn when enabled. Otherwise if I disable all but protection, they are replaced with blank normal "Attack" when they'd otherwise be used, ie. Band of Champions V used with Combat Arts normally. That appears to be Wards Focus to me, even with high shards and psionics Wards always appear instead of others. My highest would be Psionics or Wards, but Wards is generally the chosen art to use. Mikeyakame 10:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC) ::I'll check it out when i get to the commander class, but my hunch is that you just have a really bad luck with the rng. If it was any kind of focus though, you'd see the commands related to that focus appear more often (ie Attack with Combat Arts, Attack with Mystic Arts). Getting Band of Champions V in an Attack with Combat Arts chain is something entirely different. What command chains are you seeing? Drake178 10:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC) :For a good example of what I mean take note of the Give It All You Got command chain. That is focus specific if the class has a specific focus. All Combat Art Focus will have a combat art here, all item Art Focus will use an Item Art, and all Mystic Art focus will use a mystic art. :Command chains I get commonly in Deadlock (this is only when it matters really for focus specific command chains) are Attack With Mystic Arts (blank with all offensive mystic disabled), Lower Their Morale (Mixed Message III), Give Defensive Support (Protection/Orphic Ward/Band of Champions), Lay Down Cover (Band Of Champions/Support), and when I have all Wards currently active on the union and no damage I will get Attack with Combat Arts!!! HAH!! Crazy aye. It's fine when there are 4+ enemy unions because to get Combat Art attacks I just break deadlock and attack a union that gives me it. If I break deadlock the other unions will be Attack with Mystic Arts/Support Your Friends (Cheer/Band of Champions)/Help Em Out (Protection/Orphic Ward)/Attack/Give Defensive Support/Hurry and Heal em or otherwise Unique Arts/Weapon Arts. In a Finish em with Weapon Arts command chain Rush will usually get Attack command in deadlock or out of deadlock usually highest level Combat Art. Tell me what your take on these command chains is. My take is that Commander has Mystic Focus at the least, and Wards Focus (if it exists) otherwise Recovery Focus perhaps. Mikeyakame 11:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC) :Check your email, mailed current save you can have a play with. Mikeyakame 11:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC) ::Well since i have to go to sleep now i'll check the mail after work tomorrow, but one thing i can say right away: Give it All you Got! is not focus specific. It's class type specific. Combat classes (regardless of physical focus) will get combat arts, Mystic classes (regardless of mystic focus) will get mystic arts in this chain. Gladiator (no focus) will get combat arts, Sorcerer (Recovery focus) will get mystic arts. Drake178 11:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC) A/SS Weapon Specific Combat Art XP *Rank A Specific Combat Art learnt at 980XP in specific weapon XP counter equipped. IE. Learn Moonset (Rank A Specific Art) with any Katana when Katana XP = 980. :That's way off. I just learned Cross Slice by setting it to 608 after learning Blue Streak at 608 One-handed. It's interesting to see though, my XBOX test result suggests 440 wield xp for a Rank A generic art and 400 weapon xp for a weapon specific one. Both of our results are way higher than that. I'll keep looking. Drake178 07:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC) : That is weapon specific XP, ie. Katana Specific counter = 980XP to learn first Katana specific art. I don't have the wield style XP unfortunately since mine is 4500ish. I'll need to do new game with fresh counters to figure that component out. I previously came up with ~1000XP so I wasn't far off, this time I tracked combat art hit/misses and extrapolated it back to check the XP at the counter vs my usage. I'll figure out the XP for Rank SS specific art next since I just broke the magical 400 chains :D. Mikeyakame 08:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC) That's exactly what i meant. I put 608 into the Sword XP and learned Cross Slice (Rank A Sword Specific) right away. And the XBOX test resulted in 100 combat art uses to learn it, which translates into 400 xp. Anyway, there is no hit/miss to extrapolate back, a dodged combat art gives the same xp as one that hits. Unless you mean command chained vs. performed that is. Are you looking at the counters at the ends of 20-turn battles? Guess i should have included battle XP in that last table :P Drake178 08:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC) :yep thats exactly what i'm doing. making rough notes of commands performed, taking XP pre battle and XP post battle, taking difference dividing up hit/miss and uses, and checking when I remember combat art counter for each to double check my numbers match. I should make note of wield style XP too im using, maybe there is a penalty for very high XP in any of them. Currently: :*PG = 4879XP (wouldn't have been far from this when I recorded XP to learn Rank A wpn art.) :*2H = 4400XP :When you are checking values, sample more than 1 case. Say if you test at 1000XP wield, n XP specific, then do 2000XP wield, 3000XP wield, until 5K limit and see at which point you don't learn the art anymore if that's the case. When you are figuring out unknown values always best to take a few sample points with a few possible number sets, real world doesn't play out like a text book and there is always factors which can screw up perfect results taken in a perfect experiment. These are good but they don't represent randomness or spread of values actually playing the game would raise XP counters to and more importantly, most people have spreads of usage without anything solid. Once you explain how you got that 17000000h offset to me I'll start playing with Effects as this is going to earn me a free vacation to the nuthouse! Mikeyakame 09:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC) ::That's an easy question, i disassembled the code :D Drake178 09:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC) :If you want reconstructed assembly code for the .exe I can throw you the 500+mb database that has so far been analyzed from the disassembler! I ran it for 5 or 6hrs over night and was still going when I woke, so I saved it and I'll do it again tonight! It'll be heaven and hell for you at the same time :D Well disassembling is something, but 17000000h is it static? and I'll assume it's where the reference tables for all underlying wpn/cls/acc/eff/skill etc are allocated in memory? If so is it static and does it have a relationship to the addr offset on first load upon process attachment to tlr.exe? If so I can figure out the rest, I just need to know the rules behind how you determined it etc. Mikeyakame 09:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC) :*2H = 4741XP, Staff = 983XP, Just learnt Crush (Rank A Staff) in battle summary after last use. So it seems at least when high end of wield XP limits ~980-982XP is requirement to learn Rank A Art. Mikeyakame 09:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC) Your explanation of wield-weapon correlation is pretty much the only thing i can think of, ie Rank A weapon type xp requirement is calculated from the wield style xps. If that is true it's probably also true for weapon arts. Drake178 10:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)